abufletcher

Opps! Duplicate post.

abufletcher

For comparison purposes here are the pages from the 1919 issue of Flight showing the wing structure and fuse formers. I have the Flugsport article as a .pdf file but I'm not sure I have on the laptop I'm using at the moment. When I get back to Japan, I can send it to you.

There are a couple of photos of Seth's fuselage a couple of pages back in this thread. And before that other outstanding 1/4 scale (inside and out) Pfalz by Dan Schmitz.

arspievack

Abu
Thanks
It looks fantastic!!
I'll search for it and would love anything you have
[email protected]
Many thanks

Dai Phan

My Feedback: (2)

Hi all,

Look like I finally choose Alan's plan and will have the parts cut by Lazer Lizard. I am really looking foward to build this beautiful bird. DP

abufletcher

I just want to clarify here that I'm just "the librarian" here and these outstanding models are the work of Seth Hunter (above left) and Dan Schmitz (above right). There are more photos of both (including some in-flight shots of Dan's masterpiece) in prior pages of this thread.

Sethhunter

Hi folks - interesting discussion. Before now I had not seen these various plans. Lots of good design work here. I wish I could contribute my plans which I drew in CAD about 7 years ago, but a computer crash and no backup left me with only various sections and templates to build from.

Abu, I'm not sure I have documentation named or from Flugesporte. My design was a composite from the sources I listed earlier. The profile I mostly copied from (rather poor quality) DIII drawings from Leo/WWI Aero, simply labeled (rather obviously) pfalz flugzeugwerke Gmbh Spener a.R.h. (not sure why Spener rather than Speyer??). I then used Wylam and other sources to fill in the details and adjustments for the DIII.a. The airfoil I intend to use is Gottingen 381, which is similar to the pfalz section, is a little thicker, and is the right vintage. I have not used it before, but the data sheets show reasonable characteristics. BTW - again thanks for the kind words. The plane is certainly photogenic!

Oh also - I've decided to use Fritz Hohn's colors. I'm a bit sad about not having lozenge wings but I wanted to stick with the silver base I've already laid down, and I do like the red bands (my wife likes that the "H" could stand for our last name - "Hunter"!). I probably would have selected Holtzem's scheme but after learning Max used straight pipes rather than the standard exhaust manifold, I didn't want to discard the exhaust I spent so much time building!!

Alan, you wrote the two scary words I've been thinking a lot about: "too heavy!" I used two layers of 1/64 ply for my fuse and kept the amount of epoxy to a minimum, and a very light fiberglass on the outside. At this point the fuse weighs about 8 lbs without outer wing panels, wheels, engine, rigging or radio. I'm still optimistic the crate will come in under 25lb. If not, building a new fuselage may be necessary. But since all the major parts bolt-on (stab, LG, cabanes, etc.) I wouldn't be a total rebuild. Do you recall how heavy your molded fuse was compared to the sheeted fuse? There are a variety of pictures of the plane on parts of it on the thread. Thanks!

arspievack

Seth,
Thanks for jumping in on this discussion. You have a lot of good background material.
I'm sorry I don't remember the weights and not sure I decided "too heavy" by weighing.
Remember we're talking 35 years ago!! What I did was try to balance the plane with the two building methods and calulated I'd need over 1 lb of nose weight to get the CG right. Even with the lighter building method (balsa) I had to add 8 ozs. to the nose.
That was my definition of "too heavy". The total weight of the plane came in between 8-9 lbs. That gave a wing loading of around 14oz/sq. ft. And that gave very gentle flight characteristics
But remember I was building to available accessory sizes. That what was driving the scale. As I remember that truned out to be 2" to the ft.
Today I would consider that much too small a model. if your model is bigger (which it looks to be) weight should not be as big an issue. The biggest engine available at the time was a .60. We are relieved from those limits today so can do a better job all around. if your plane is bigger you'll probably have a heavier engine and won't have the problem I had. As you know it's all relative.
The pictures of your plane are impressive and I'll follow with great interest to see it complete and in the air. I'm sure it will be a great success.
keep me posted
Many Thanks
alan

Mode One

Just a comment on built up vs sheet for tail feathers: WW1 planes have a habit of flipping on their backs on landing. Simply make sure your built up structure is strong enough to withstand this! Scratch-building/building from plans/kit building. STOP splitting hairs and START having fun. That's what this is all about, isn't it? People seem to want clairification on these aspects to anounce what they consider their harder work and skills (Probably angered some with this statement). The truth is; if you've built a kit, the other two are probably within your capabilities. My Albatros DIII was based on the Squadron/Signals book, only. Probably not the best source. However, I found the research and design processes as fun as the building and flying.

Sethhunter

Modeone I absolutely agree. I never thought too much about the distinction. I will add, however, the amount of effort is more related to the level of detail, rather than starting from plans or kit. Either approach can yield a model that looks scale at 1 foot, 15 feet or way off. Personally I find figuring out how to build details is a blast, and I learn more about the airplane in doing so. It's the engineer in me. But it takes lots of time (I view it as making the hobby cheaper by the hour!) But I'd never take anything away from anyone building a profile, kit, or an ARF, or whatever. You are right - it's all about the fun!

Oh - BTW; I agree with the flip comment; My rudder post is strong! But I haven't figured out how I'll keep replacing that $%^(* radiator expansion tank on top that will SURELY bite the dust!!

abufletcher

Seth, just be glad it's not a flimsy Lewis gun on top of a thin tripod as on my Nieuport! .

Dai Phan

My Feedback: (2)

Hi all,

Well I just placed an order on the Alan Spieval Pfalz DIII plan as well as Datafile No-21 and 107 for references. Once I have finalized the company to cut the parts, I will post a build thread. Shall I put it under Scratch Build Section or in the RC Scale Forum? Thank you all especially Abufletcher for putting together this useful thread. DP

arspievack

Put in under both
alan

Sethhunter

Hey DP that's exciting. I always like the start of a project - energy is high, it's all new! Please keep us updated.
Alan - thanks for the weight insite; yes my plane is bigger; 1/4 scale. I agree that should give me the margin to handle the extra weight of cold molding the fuselage. But I do need to find a way to make tires lighter than AMZ's solid urethane tires.

I installed the mercedes and spandau this weekend. I figured a couple hours - no luck. The engine was slightly bigger than I had figured so I had to remake some of the cowling (all aluminum sheet). I new better than to build the cowling first, but couldn't resist when I bought the material!! Boy it's a tight fit under that wing. Putting the pieces together really underscores this plane was all about the engine and guns - that's a lot of hardware up there. Radiator is next on the schedule. I also finished the cabane flying wires. Since my cabanes are pinned ball joints, the rigging will take all the side-side shear load. I wish there were diagonal braces between the cabanes, but I think when the external landing and flying wires are rigged, the whole structure will be pretty stiff.

arspievack

Seth,
Thanks for the pictures.
Your plane is magnificent. Truely a piece of art and far better then mine.
Give me some info.
First the ball joints at and around the cabane. Did you buy those of make them yourself? The engine and Spandaus, same question. Are they kits or all hand built by you?
Have you picked a color scheme yet?
Finally what engine are you going to use and how concealed will it be?
Thanks for letting me see the progress. I'm tremendously impressed with the quality of the build and your workmanship.
Great work
alan

Dai Phan

My Feedback: (2)

Hi all,

I have been looking at the Pfalz and I can see it sitting on my bench. It's funny how you can almost see it "in your head" of what is going to look like. The biggest drawback for my project is the engine. I can make a "look alike" Mercedes DIII but a scale like yours is hard to beat since there is no plastic model in 1/6 scale. This plane will be much more in scale than the Fun Aero Albatros so I am more picky about the scale details. When I told my friends that I am building a Pfalz from a plan, there were only TWO types of comments:

1. Are you kidding? You are asking for PUNISHMENT!!!
2. What's a Pfalz? Is it a Park Flyer?

The plan is on its way and Alan has been very helpful in answering my questions. I can't wait to get started on this unique bird! DP

arspievack

Dai,
There is a company which has a kit for 1/6 scale Mercedes engines. I saw them on this RC Universe site.

About the friends who make those comments.
Clearly they are not SCALE modelers. I like anything I can make fly, but I would never had been a modeler if I couldn't make what I was flying look like the real thing.
AND when I have some time I'll tell you about buliding a model BEFORE the real airplane was built and taking it to a contest and getting zero scale points because the REAL one wasn't built yet. The real one came out about 1 year after the model. Now that's SCALE modeling.
alan

Dai Phan

My Feedback: (2)

Hello Scale Buff,

Thanks Alan for the info on the engine. I will look for it and please post a link here if anyone finds it. I think that building a scale plane ( from kit or plan) is extremely rewarding because you create a piece of history from a box of balsa. And not to mention that there is no other plane like it. Last weekend, I brought my Albatros to a LHS to show to my friend and before I knew it, a guy running excitedly down the isle asking " Wow, what ARF is that?". To his dismay and bitter dissapoinment, I told him that it is from a kit. We as scale builders becoming more rare as ever but I always enjoy the admiration from people when they find out that it's a kit built. DP

arspievack

Dai,
I know what you mean.
In 1975 or 6, I forget, I showed a scale model of the Westland Whirlwind WWII British Fighter Bombr at the Wrams Show in Westchester NY.
It won Best in Show and was shown in all the Model Mags. I did an article on it and will dig it out and send it some way for you to see.
alan

Sethhunter

Hi Alan - thanks again for the support - true test will be if it flies!
I made the strut fittings, control horns and rigging anchors using tin snips, files, brass, fiberglass, aluminum and solder. Attached are some rough sketches. I tried to get them as close as I could to the illustrations in the Pfalz datafile. Quick comment on the ball end; After some experimentation (destructive testing) I got the max load up to 40 lbs (each). I was hoping for more like 60lb, but feel with eight of them holding the wing plus all the wires, 40 lb is adequate. The failure mode is the bolt head would punch cleanly through the aluminum ball. It helped a lot to break the edge on the bottom of the bolt head to distribute the load as much as possible. Of course this is all just one approach. I considered casting and machining. I'd like to hear of other ways folks have done this. I also have gotten quite good at splicing the cables using standard 3-strand eye splicing method. A magnifying head piece is useful for my 'ol eyes in all of this! I'll post some pics of the fittings soon.

The engine is Proctor kit. Guns are Arizona Modeler kit. The green hue on the guns is deliberate, after looking at photos on the web and talking to gun owners I learned the cooling jacket is copper-based (brass or bronze?). I've picked the Hohn paint scheme with spiral red ribbons and stripes over silver. The only hitch is Hohn's DIII.a had the club-end style strut fittings whereas mine are tapered. I'm just not up to changing them now (maybe later).

Surprisingly I still haven't picked an engine. I would like to finish most of the work on the fuse and check the weight and balance and make a decision on power plant. If I can't find one that fits inside the area of the mercedes, I'll pop it out the bottom like Dan Schmidts. I'm a bit concerned about cooling (although the vents are real). I know Tom P. had a very clever cooling vent that opened in the front cowl - an interesting way to bring more air in.

NOTE - These sketches are HIGHER RESOLUTION than original post. I've also discovered downloading file results in more readable image than clicking here (using RCU viewer). SH

Sethhunter

The sketches didn't post as clearly as I hoped. I can email them if anyone wants them. Here are a few pictures of the strut fittings under construction:
1. Aluminum balls drilled for the machine screw.
2. Balls mounted to a brass strap and placed on a male mold.
3. Fiberglass filling the ball and wrapping the mold, compressed under wax paper.
4. Finished ball fitting in mating socket bolted onto side of fuselage.
5. Finished cabane top fittings.
6. Jigs holding wing position, and dummy strut setting distance between fittings.

arspievack

Seth,
many thanks for your photos and drawings. They're terrific
As always from "scalers" your methods are clever, inventive and very effective.
Thanks for sharing. All of your spectacular works saves me from doing it.
Good luck and keep me posted
Thanks
alan

abufletcher

Seth, each new photo you post amazes me all over again! Thanks for revealing a few "magician's secrets."

BTW, the drawings in the datafile come directly from the Flight/Flugsport article -- as demostrated by the fact that many where not reproduced on the Wylam plans. Actually, I think I posted linked to all of these photos (and maybe even a link to the Flight article) earlier in this thread. I think the Flugsport article is available as a .pdf from the Fokker Team Schorndorf project document archive. For those of you who can read German, the text is also an interesting insight into the technological mindset of the time.

VNulk

You're doing a remarkable job Seth! I know just what you're accomplishing having scratched out a 1/4 scale Albatros DV.a and now working on an LFG Roland C.II. The photos you've provided in this forum out shows in detail how much work goes into these projects and will no doubt inspire budding scratch builders to tackle their own dream scale project.. A real part of the fun though is designing the parts that you don't want to, or can't purchase.

I did notice on one of the front quarter pictures that you have a turnbuckle hanging off of the forward wing root.(looks like a ball-joint termination) Could you provide a closeup of that fitting when you have time? I have need of a simlar fitting on the Roland and I'm looking for fresh ideas for construction.

I'll be in touch,

Vern Nulk

Sethhunter

Hi Vern,
Many thanks. The DVa and DIII.a are in many ways quite similar. The following sketches and pictures show the detail of the LG and drag wire mount. The main advantage of this construction is it just bolts on, as opposed to more invasive or less scale approaches. But of course, there are many ways to skin the cat! The method here is similar to what I used for the strut fittings; brass substructure, fiberglass overcoat for reinforcement and shape. It also allowed me to use hollow AL oval tube for the struts. I have similar fittings at the bottom of the LG struts to mount the axle fairing and hold the bungy, etc.. I'd like to see how you approach the problem too!
Good luck

Pictures show 1) soldering the brass parts, 2) applying fiberglass to the front fittings, 3) Aligning the LG components on a fixture that mocks up the fuselage mounting points, 4) close up of the front fittings sanded to shape, 5) close up of the rear fittings (that bolt to the fuselage under the cockpit), 6 & 7) two views of the port forward mount showing the turnbuckle for the drag wire, attachment bolts, tang for LG brace wire.

arspievack

Seth,
I love your stuff.
Clever , inventive, original and looks great.
But I'd be really chiken to use only aluminum struts without some heavy wire or maybe hard wood inserts for strength.
You're probabaly a better flyer and make smoooth gentle landings.
But those little hold on screws look too delicate for my flying skill.
More, more
Ilove it .., Great stuff
alan