BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Thanks for the information. I have the book on the Pfalz and they are neat looking planes. I might consider building one after I build my Albatross..

zoomzoooie

Dan your Pfalz looks fantastic! That dummy engine detail shot looks so real. I'm a little late replying, all the good questions have been asked, but I noticed that you did not rib stitch it. If you have been thinking about it, you still can do it.

I have a question. I noticed in the Wylam cockpit drawings, there is a thing called a "pivot arm" that mounts to the rudder bar and goes up to the stick. You can see it in the Flugsport fulelage side view drawing too. You did not include it in your detailed cockpit?
Anyone know what it is, does and how it works? I thought it might be to lock stick in place for long flights...but can't really tell from the drawings. Anyone have any detailed cockpit photos?

ZZ

destrat

Zoomzooie:

You are probably right to think that it is to lock the control column in place, maybe not for long flights, but how about for freeing up both hand's when in the heat of dogfighting, now you have one, or two Spandau's jammed. You are going to need those hand's, because it would be a bit tough to fly with your knee's! Also, as a gust lock comes to mind.
Yeah I know, no rib stitches, I tried to dummy up some real subtle ones on a mock up, but they still looked to pronounced! After looking in my Pfalz book's, you can hardly even see any stitches there. Once you back up from the plane 6ft, you wouldn't see them anyway. It has been my experience in the past that no stitch is better than one that is to much of a standout. My 1/4 scale "cabin WACO" is a good example of what I mean. I will continue to explore idea's, becauase I'm definitely not against taking the time to put them on.

abufletcher

Just had another crazy idea (it's maybe the only kind I have lately): Ever look at a the paper roll inside a roll of toilet paper? It's two overlapping layers of thick paper rolled at a 45 degree angle. And I immediately thought of the Pfalz! What got my brain going in this direction is that I was looking through one of the datafiles (on the LVG CVI) and thought to myself: "You know, that plywood covering looks more like brown wrapping paper that wood. And I started wondering if maybe you could cover one of these two seater with layers of paper and resin. And then I started thinking about scale thickness and that 3mm ply veneer would be more like thick paper on our models.

Anyway, I wonder if it might be possible to do the "Wickelrumpf" technique with paper (and resin) instead of wood. It would probably be very light and possibly even quite strong and resistent.

More things to experiment with.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

I'm going to be sacrilegious here and suggest that the best way to get that fuse shape is to cut it out of foam and glass and resin it. It wouldn't be the least bit authentic in construction (internally) but it would be relatively easy to make. In fact taking that process a little further one could make the engineered "wood" panels from glass using the foam as the plug. After each panel has cured it could be covered with thin veneer placed over a scale frame work much like the original and.
Just another idea.. maybe not a good one?

abufletcher

Bob, so such thing as a bad idea! Actually I have thought of carving a fuse out of foam, glassing it, and using that to mold the ply shell. Who knows what I'll end up doing. But I just know I couldn't have a glass fuse on a WWI bird. I don't even feel comfortably glassing balsa sheeting. Heck if I did that I might as well just give up a build a Corsair!!!

Trev

Don, why not build a simple dummy fuse-frame (couple of formers & stringers) and apply small patches of the shell using each method (balsa, veneer, ply, card?)

Maybe this would prove the (scale) feasibility of one method over another.

Trev

Just realized I breached 100 on my 'post-status'...bit pathetic really considering I've been here for a while

mac49

My Feedback: (5)

Abufletcher, if I remember correctly, the Windsock Datafile on the Pfalz D XIII has a pictorial essay on the construction of the fuselage that describes a similar methodology to your above description. They used a mold to which they applied a layer of veneer angled at 45 degrees. A thin layer of strips of cloth was the next layer followed by a second layer of veneer laid on at 90 degrees to the first layer of veneer. All is saturated with casein glue. The final layer of veneer was sanded and then a second final layer of cloth sealed the layers. This structure was removed from the mold and attached to the formers to maintain it rigid. There was of course an opposite side to complete the fuselage. The datafile stated that it was very light, rigid and aerodynamic. Mark

abufletcher

Trev, what's pathetic is that I have well over a thousand post and only one scale model to my name!!! Time to build!!!

destrat

Gentlemen:

I have finally got my Pfalz D-IIIa into the air on 07-02-05! It was pretty uneventful, and the only trim it needed was some down trim. This seems to be typical for these type aircraft. If you read any full-scale pilot reviews they all seem to have to push ahead on the stick, even to the point of pilot fatique! The ZDZ has plenty of power with a 20/10 Zinger prop, in fact after my departure turn, it is more comfortable to fly throttled back, not bad for a 29lb. airplane. Landings are typical in that you need to carry some power right down to the ground, because of all the drag. My buddy took some in flight shots today, 07-09-05, and I'll post them when he sends them over. Afew more flights, and we'll be ready for the fly-in at St. Charles IL. at Robart, and then it is on to the Dawn Patrol 2005 in Dayton, OH. at the end of September, hop to see some of you guy's at either one

abufletcher

Great news!!! Can't wait to see the photos. I hope eventually to be able to get back to this project. In fact, I think there's a strong possibility that I'll just go ahead with a preliminary "first build" sometime next winter.

destrat

Here are a few shots of my Pfalz in flight this past July at St. Charles, Illinois. This fly-in was hosted by the Fox River Aero Club, and Robart.

abufletcher

Could you try that again?

destrat

I tried to upload pictures of the Pfalz in flight, text came out but where are the pic's? I've done it twice before, but don't know what I'm doing wrong this time! A guy can build something as complicated as the Pfalz, yet can't even upload a few shots! Any help is welcomed, thanks! "I tried to think, but nothing happens"!

abufletcher

Dan, are the photos in .jpeg (.jpg) format? I suppose it's also possible that the file size is too large. I always make sure the photos I upload are no more than 800 x 600. RCU seems to automatically shrink them down to a standard size.

If you'd like you could try emailing them to me via a PM and I could put them up for you.

Also I'd love to hear more about how the Pfalz handles on take-offs, in the air, and on landings.

--Don

abufletcher

Here are the pix of Dan's Pfalz DIII. It sure looks great in the air! That black outline on the rudder really sets it off.

Dan, I hope you don't mind that I cropped them and clean up the colors a bit.

destrat

Abufletcher:

Thankyou so much for posting the photos, and no I didn't mind a bit for the cropping etc. You have been a big help to me, thanks again!

Sethhunter

I'm currently scratch building a Pfalz DIIIa 1/4 scale from my own plans. Datafile 21 has a lot of good information in it. The Author (Peter Grosz) also wrote an article in WWI Aero No.158 (Nov 1997) on the plywood fuselage construction method used for the Pfalz DXII, but it applies also to the DIII/a. I used the same method laminating strips of 1/64 wing skin ply over a male mold, 2 layers on diagonals and then lightly glassed. The fuselage is very strong. Leo Opdycke (World War I Aeroplanes, Inc.) provided some original factory drawings - very rough from years of photocopying, but it was enough to show the Wylam profiles were a little off. I plan on stitching the covering on the wings, which led me to a discussion a few years ago with Robert Mikesh, who was responsible for the restoration of the Albatros DVa at the Smithsonian. He pointed me to his book (now out of print but available at used book stores) Albatrox D.Va German Fighter of World War I. It is an outstanding book with lots of detailed pictures. Since the Pfalz and Albatros had common factories and common engines, there's useful details (for example, good pictures of the Teves and Braun Radiator, the Merc. 180, capstrip attachment/stitching, cockpit engine/fuel/air controls, etc.).

I've duplicated the ball-and-socket strut attachment fittings, tubular landing gear with flange-fittings, removable stab, access ports, etc. It's really a pretty airplane to model. My fuse, LG, center-sections, and tail are done but not covered or painted. Haven't started the wings yet. Piecing together the details takes a long time on a plane that doesn't have an abundance of documentation! Hope some of these references help.

zoomzoooie

Sethhunter.

Check out http://home.cablerocket.com/~scaleribstitch/index.htm for rib stitching.

ZZ

Mode One

Wow, I don't know why I've spent so much time at the Warbirds forum, when the best WW1 stuff is right here on Scale R/C Aircraft! I'm a Pfalz phile also! As a matter of fact, I have Destrat's DIIIa on my computer's desktop right now. Dan did a super, super job! My DIII is going to be built someday down the line. I have a bunch of 1/48th scale plastic WW1 planes also and more to build someday, never enough time. I have the Wylam drawings and the Pfalz book by Herris. I also have Mickish's book on the Smithsonian's Albatross DVa so as you can see, I gravitate towards the German side, as far as WW1 a.c. design is concerned. Keep this thread going!

Sethhunter

A long way from done, but a few pics of my DIIIa coming together. 1/4 scale. About time to start thinking about the dummy engine. Any comments on the Proctor or AZM kits for the Mercedes 180?

Mode One

I finally read through this entire thread, all 147 posts worth! This took several hours. Other than Herris' book, this may be the largest amount of data assembled on the Pfalz DIII/DIIIa since the aircraft was in production.

Seth Hunter, your photos appear to show your fuse was built using a similar technique to Pfalz' method. Why don't you describe this method.

From my stand point, my interest in this hobby is pretty much split 50/50; building and flying. I would not build a plane, unless I thought it a reasonable chance of being a successful flier. I would also build it with an eye to wards ease of construction, lightness and having no interest in doing detail work that would never be seen after construction is completed. I'm not saying you guys are crazy for doing so, just that's not the direction I would go.

In all the reference to data given here, no one has mentioned using plastic models of the subject model. It used to be (may still be) that AMA scale allowed the use of a plastic model for documentation. Eduard manufactures very detailed 1/48th scale Pfalz DIII & DIIIa models for around $25.00. Manufacturers of these models go through all the information they can find before committing mega buck for the tooling to produce these models. I would guess their information is as close to real as any amount of data we can assemble! Plastic modelers are just as fussy as we are about the scale realness or their models and maybe even more so.

Accurate documentation is a difficult thing to quantify! More information on the Pfalz may have been available previous to World War Two, but likely destroyed during the war. All we will ever be able to do with a Pfalz model is hope for a reasonable facsimile. Sooner or later, you have to say; I've gathered enough information, now I need to start building! Then the real information you needed, will magically appear!

abufletcher

Seth, that's an absolutely mind-blowing model there! Perhaps the biggest shame about building a totally scale DIIIa is having to cover it up! Your take on the wickelrumpf technique is outstanding.

Mode One

Abufletcher, Are you working on your model of the Pfalz, yet? This thread is so close to being a year old! It's good to see it is still attracting attention.

Has Sethhunter explained his method of fuselage construction? Did I miss this somewhere along this thread?