ArdChoile

Seth.

Nice photo, now try this site

www.thepilotpeople.co.uk

They will either supply from stock or make to order, not sure what their prices are like but it's worth looking into. Their samples on their site are pretty impressive.

As to your earlier question. I will be making two complete male molds (out of which I'm not sure yet, probably half formers, foam and glass) and doing the wickelrumpf method as close to original as I can. Lack of total information is the killer!! The project starts still a way off as I'm in the throws of selling my house and then my wife and I will be moving to Texas to settle. Well I'll be moving there, my wife will be moving home!!

I'm also having difficulty in finding scale drawings of all the formers. The Flight Mag. pics are pretty good but still missing several formers.
I'll post the drawing I'm talking about and if anyone could assist with the formers circled it would be great.

Keep up the great work and sharing of information everyone.

Sethhunter

Thanks for the tip.

I don't know if this would help, but I built a full scale cold-molded sailboat hull a few years ago using the method described in "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction, Wood & West System Materials." The method uses wood stringers over formers as the mold. Each layer of veneer is stapled to the strips. You pull the staples as each veneer layer goes on, restapling to hold the latest layer down until the epoxy cures. The staple pattern shows where the underlying stringers are (and where the gaps between them are). When done, the shell lifts off the mold. It inspired me to try it on the model and was reasonably successful even in small scale.

One of the most useful skills I learned from the Gougeons is how to loft an offset table into a set of sections. Even if you start with complete formers, I would recommend checking their fairness by lofting so you don't end up with a funky hollow or bump.

Have you asked Leo at WWI Aero for his Pfalz materials? One of the most noticable differences I've seen in drawings is the rudder shape. I patterned mine after Leo's drawings, which had a more pronounced hump above the hingeline, then a straight run into the rounded section. Others seem to be more continuously curved.

Sethhunter

Hi Erich,
Yes you are quite right, there's structure under the anchors! I glued a plywood block to the rib and spars, and keyed it to lock between the spars too. Each block is flush with the top of the rib, and drilled for bolts (one hole for the anchor, another for the strut). On the underside, I framed-out a little balsa well around the block, flush with the bottom of the rib to form a pocket, framed the bottom of that with 1/64 ply for the covering to attach to. Fake backing plates cover the wells. The well hides the nut holding the rigging anchor bolt, and the head of the bolt going up into the strut.

The struts are laminated light ply with a core of 5-ply near the attachment points, spruce strips on the LE and TE, and 1/2 oz glass. The A nyloc nut is embedded in the core plywood with a bolt hole lined with brass tube epoxied into it. A brass U-shaped "tang" is silver soldered to the brass tube, and the tangs are glassed to the outsides of the strut. An aluminum ball is drilled and glued to the tube, and a cup made of brass is glued to the tube and the ball. Final glueing of the ball-cup is done on the plane to get the angles right. The fake bracket is a combo of plastic sheet on the flats areas, and epoxy filler on the rounds. I made 3D metal and fibergalss brackets for the cabane struts, and decided I wasn't going to try that again!

I don't know if this makes sense!! I can sketch it if anyone's interested.

The black material visible in the well is carbon laminate on the spars. The bottom of the pockets looks uneven because (1) they are, to match the angle of the bolts, and (2) the ply glue lines create funny perspective.

I think this placement relative to the ribs is not quite scale, since the original had these fittings on a spreader-bar connecting the spars, between ribs. But I'm trying to keep this fun!!

Wings have not been painted yet so they're a bit shiny.

ArdChoile

Thanks Seth,

I'll get me a copy of the THE GOUGEON BROTHERS ON BOAT CONSTRUCTION. and will get in contact with WW1 Aero to see if I can purchase his material.

Nice photos once again.

Erich_Prinz

Hey Ard...

Let me know when you make it to Texas ...

We're just north of Austin and if you're close, you might have and extra set of hands to help build the Pfalz.

Erich

Erich_Prinz

Seth,

Super clean setup with the struts and wire anchors. Far cry from my usual "hurry up so I can fly" routine. I know that it takes time to think through the setup process and then the actual build. Kudos for your patience - it really shows.

The hardware keeps throwing me since my focus is on the small scale electric - the weight of the bolt alone makes me cringe!!!! LOL!

So, my earlier prognostication was flying by summer. What's the real time line you're shooting for?

Also, I'm curious about the power plant decision process. Are you far enough along on the project to know the approximate weight and thus engine requirements?

Erich

ArdChoile

Thanks for the offer Erich,

Were moving to Sanderson down in Terrel County. Will never say no to having a helping set of hands. I think this will be quite a project but one that's worth the effort.

Erich_Prinz

Ouch!

Google shows:

Dist: 343 mi (Drive time: about 6 hours 17 mins)

Looks like I need a private pilots license -

That's close to Big Bend - some of the most rugged and beautiful part of the Lone Star state. I can see a few trips in the future for the cause.

Erich

ArdChoile

Certainly is a fair drive Erich, but once were set up down there I'll have to make sure we build a spare room for any visiting helping hands.

Hope to be over there by Aug - Sept and then first priority is building the house etc so will be a little time before the project gets under way. Leaves me plenty of time at the present to get as much info as I can on the Pfalz.

ArdChoile

Seth,

I've been giving it a lot more thought. I do a lot of woodworking (cabinets etc) and was going to build a vacuum press for doing some of the lamination work. I guess now I'll just have to make it extra large and when doing the wickelrumpf and also use the vac. press to really pull the veneers tight down onto the molds.

I have several plans for vac. presses so I'll just adapt one of these to help in the fuselage building process.

Theres split opinions as to the angle that the veneers were laid at. Some say 45 degress and the opossing layer 90 degrees to the first, others say 30 degrees and the second layer 60 degrees to the first. I'm not sure if either will really make a difference so long as they are opposed and the joints are all nice and tight.

At least we do have the benefit of well seasoned woods to work with these days which should also help to eliminate any warpage.

Any thoughts guys?

Sethhunter

I'd forgotten about vacuum bagging! I haven't used it on a large object, but I have an article I will send you if you wish; from the book "10 Wooden Boats You Can Build for Sail, Motor, Paddle and Oar" by Peter H. Spectre from the Wooden Boat Series. It goes into detail on vacuum bagging a nice looking boat. I think one of the tricks is getting the planks "spiled" so they fit tight, on a curved surface, and bagged in the right position. But it comes out lighter (so they say - I haven't tried it) and I'm sure stronger. The angle is a good question. I'm not a composites engineer so strength of highly nonisotropic materials (materials where properties like strength depends on direction) is not something I can answer off the top of my head - will give it a bit of thought. Were you planning on 3 layers?

PM your address if you would like me to send the article.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Normally 45 degrees gives the most strengh since both angles are equally sharing the load. I can't say as to the practice of the Full scale construction. Although I do have the Phalz bood I don't think it gives that detail.

Sethhunter

I think we're talking about building a full scale man-carrying plane, right? With all respect and a bit of professional obligation (as a licensed engineer), I'd caution that engineers who design composite structures (which this is, afterall), would say there are few "simple" rules of thumb. There are numerous things to consider; Angle between the ply, bias of the ply to the axis of the plane, shear strength of the adhesive, strength of the base material, number of layers, curvature of the structure, placement of formers, dominant failure modes of the materials themselves,... I would be a bit careful for a man-carrying craft. For example, dominant failure mode of the fuselage might be buckling rather than tensile/compressive failure. Analysis is not trivial, but may not be necessary, either. There may be readily available standard practices for wood laminated airframes - i.e., applicable codes, approved plans, etc.. It might be worth talking to an EAA/FAA insider about certification criteria before mix'in up the glue. We're not tallking a model here!

Mode One

I think if I were to build a Pfalz, nowadays, I would build the fuse with modern composite materails. The Pfalz was known to break in half just at the cockpit aperature. This is me, of course!

ArdChoile

Seth,

Yes that is the plan, a full-size man carrying Pfalz. I'm currently investigating all requirements and practices but want to eventuallt build the Pfalz as close to original practices as I can but still being airworthy.

I realise I still have much information to get, but you guys are all helping me by bringing up these hurdles and what if senarios.

Thanks again

Ard

abufletcher

Achim Engel of Fokker Team Schorndorf is, I believe, currently collecting information for a full-scale airworthy Pfalz DIII. At one point though I believe he said that unfortunately no more than about 10% of the information still exists. I know he had a sharp eye of the full-scale (non-flying) replica done by the team at the new Pfalzflugzeugwerke.

abufletcher

Have you gone through all the early pages of this thread? I think this thread represents just about the most complete collection of references on the Pfalz DIII as exist anywhere on the web. I know I posted a diagram from the Flugsport article which showed the angles of the wickelrumpf strips.

ArdChoile

Abu,

Yes I spent several hours reading all the previous postings when I first joined this forum and I agree, this thread does represent the most information in any one spot regarding the Pfalz.

I knew I was taking on a huge task when I decided to do this but as I said earlier it's a couple of years before the project begins and I'll just keep gathering all and any information I can get on the Pfalz until I begin and even then I reckon I'll just keep on searching. This is becoming an obsession now. I think hobby status flew out the window a while back.

regards

Ard

Mode One

There are a few books on the Pfalz, I have the Jack Herris book, both data files by Albatros Publishing and a copy of the Peter Groz book. I see there is a new one on Pfalz Squadrans, but, haven't read this one yet.

ArdChoile

Mode One

Whats the new book titled? I'd be interested in picking that one up in my yearning for information.

Mode One

Which book? The Jack Herris book is entitled Pfalz Aircraft of World War One. It looks at their Eindeckers the DIII and IIIa series, the attempts at triplanes and on to the end of the war, the D XII and beyond. I bought mine through the Aerodrome's list of books. The Windsock Data Files are available from Hannan's Runway at www.hrunway.com. The copy I have of Peter Groz' book is simply a copy which he sent me and has only around 10 pages of information.

ArdChoile

Mode One,

Thanks, I've got that on order and can't wait to be thumbing my way though it.

Ard

ArdChoile

I thought everyone would enjoy this. An Air Show in New Zealand April this year. One of the planes will be a Pfalz DIII Replica.

http://www.classicfighters.co.nz/

Ard

Erich_Prinz

Looks like a great opportunity to gather info first hand.

I've seen photos of this one before. The first thing I see is the exhaust exits to the left, not right. I suspect the engine isn't 'stock' Mercedes.

Erich

Mode One

I think the Pfalz shown in the photo is also mentioned on the back pages of the Pfalz DIII Windsock Data Files book. This airplane is/was owned by a Peter Jackson of New Zealand and is one of the two Pfalz reproductions used in the movie The Blue Max with George Peppard and Ursala Andress, done in the mid 1960s. Mr Jackson wanted to keep the airplane "as used" in the movie and restored it to that condition. Although not stated, I assume this to be the Peter Jackson whom was the director/producer of the Lord of the Rings Movies.

Exhaust wrong or not, this is still a living/flying example of what the Pfalz looked like and with an interesting history all on it's own!